Maria Nikolaevna Apraksina :
"... the temple where we go helps us maintain the Russian spirit and faith in God."
"... the temple where we go helps us maintain the Russian spirit and faith in God."
Everyone who comes to the Church-Memorial of St. Job in Brussels, at the candle box is met by Maria Nikolaevna Apraksina, who since the day of the first Divine Liturgy served in the Memorial Church has remained a constant and one of the most active members of the parish. She is also the custodian of the richest archive with documents telling about the construction and history of the Temple-Monument in Brussels.
Friendliness, intelligence, excellent manners, an unlost sense of humor, sober thinking, an excellent memory that preserves valuable events from the history of Russian Orthodoxy abroad - all this delights and arouses keen interest in the personality of Maria Nikolaevna Apraksina, daughter of representatives of the first wave of emigration from Russia, Countess Varvara Vladimirovna Musina-Pushkina and nobleman Nikolai Mikhailovich Kotlyarevsky, the closest assistant to Baron Wrangel. It should be mentioned that the father of Maria Nikolaevna was the main initiator of perpetuating the memory of the Tsar-Martyr Nicholas II, His August family and the Royal Martyrs, to whom the Memorial Church is dedicated. He took an active part in the formation and work of the Committee for the construction and construction of the Brussels Temple.
Maria Nikolaevna, who turned 81 this year, was born into a family where all three children were brought up in the Russian spirit, which marked the beginning of a wonderful family tradition. Now that Maria Nikolaevna Apraksina already has 9 grandchildren, we can safely say that the tradition of education in the spirit of the Orthodox faith and Russian culture is deeply rooted in this family.
- I was born here, in the commune of Uccle. So, according to the documents - I'm a real Belgian. However, I received Belgian citizenship only when I was 18 years old. My parents came from Belgrade to Belgium in 1926 with the family of the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Army, General P.N. Wrangel, because my father was the general's secretary until his death in 1928. We settled here, not far from the temple, which did not exist then. Then another brother was born, and then me. And I decided to get Belgian citizenship solely in order to have a scholarship and continue my studies at the commercial and financial faculty of the University of Brussels. My parents had a Nance passport (a refugee passport issued in the 20s in Switzerland).
The parents of Maria Nikolaevna never received Belgian citizenship, because in those days it cost a lot of money. Her two older children, born in the African Congo, did not receive citizenship either, because Maria Nikolaevna's husband, Vladimir Apraksin, the son of Count Pyotr Nikolayevich Apraksin, did not himself have Belgian citizenship.
How did you end up in the Congo?
My husband was an engineer there. When I got married, we got married here in the temple, and
after that they went to Africa, to the then Belgian Congo, the so-called Katango. There
I had four "Africans" born. We lived in the south of the Congo for a little over 13 years. My husband
mined copper and malachite there. I have preserved many things made of malachite that we brought
from Africa.
I had four "Africans" born. We lived in the south of the Congo for a little over 13 years. My husband
mined copper and malachite there. I have preserved many things made of malachite that we brought
from Africa.
You say you are Belgian because you were born in Belgium. This is by
birth. And in the soul?
In fact, I feel Russian. We always spoke Russian at home, with our grandmother, with our
parents. I remember how I spoke French with my brothers when I was returning
from school, but my mother stopped us and said: “Children, speak Russian to each other!”.
Subsequently, my father dictated letters to me, which he sent to the Metropolitan or someone else.
Then he controlled the spelling and thus taught me Russian literacy. In
addition, we went to Sunday school, where we studied Russian, and
a Russian teacher came to our house. Therefore, I always felt Russian. When I was asked in
school, who are you, I answered: "Je suis russe."
This phrase has forever become Maria Nikolaevna's calling card here in Brussels. It expresses one's belonging to Russian culture, an integral part of which is the Orthodox faith. Once upon a time there was a Sunday school on the rue de Livourne, where they taught the Law of God, history, geography and the Russian language. At the time when the Apraksins visited it, there were not so many Russian children, but gradually about a hundred children of white emigrants became students at the school. But soon difficulties began in church life. In 1927, a church split occurred in Belgium between the three parishes that existed at that time.
And so there was a need to create a new church?
No, this church arose solely in memory of the royal family and all those who died in
time of revolution.
Who came up with the idea to build this kind of monument?
I think my father. He took a blessing from Metropolitan Anthony, who served in
Belgrade, so they initially thought to build this church there. But the plans
changed due to the fact that the then Belgian Cardinal Mercier, imbued with sympathy for the
white emigrants, invited Russian youth to study in Belgium for free, and therefore everyone who
ended up here graduated from the university. And the children of Wrangel studied here in boarding schools, in schools, which is
why the general and his wife came here. And since my father was a secretary under Peter
Nikolaevich, he also went with him to Brussels. Later by the parishioners of the church
Resurrection of Christ (where we went as children), a building committee was created. He started
working from the 30th year and bought the land for the construction of the temple.
For what funds?
They collected money from all emigration, even from China, from Japan, like all of Europe and America,
they donated everything, because it was in memory of the Sovereign and the royal family.
Is it true that the remains of the sovereign are in the church?
There are no remains there, there is land saturated with the blood of the royal family, and we know nothing about the rest
.
So the money was raised.
You know, I have preserved the documents of the building committee from 1930 to 1945. Since
childhood, I remember how my father printed the minutes of the meeting every evening, drew up everything
accounts. I have three books of those protocols. So they started construction and
at times they didn’t have a penny.
And the construction was frozen?
No, because Emmanuil Nikolaevich Frichera, one of the members of the
construction committee, was involved in the construction. His grandfather was a naval officer in Russia, and he himself came from
Nice. Being an entrepreneur and possessing sufficient financial resources,
he took on all the construction costs.
Fundraising for the construction of the temple lasted about 14 years, from 1936 to 1950. And it really wasn't easy. This is easy to verify, just by looking at the book about the memorial church in Brussels, the documents and materials for the creation of which were provided by Maria Nikolaevna Apraksina. Looking through the documentary materials of the book, I accidentally stopped looking at the letter of one impoverished Russian nobleman, 86-year-old Prince D.D. Obolensky from Nice, which could not help touching. He ordered a marble plaque in memory of his grandson who died at the hands of the Bolsheviks, Prince. A.S. Obolensky and other officers who were killed along with their grandson near Melitopol. In a letter to the committee, he undertook to pay a meager amount every month until the Lord called him to himself. So, limiting himself, the prince sent the promised pennies every month.
The archive of Maria Nikolaevna contains many such letters, and all of them are permeated with boundless love for God, great sorrow for loved ones who died untimely through the fault of the Bolsheviks, and incredible spiritual generosity. It is thanks to these people and many like them in spirit that today we can not only come to the church of St. Job to pray, but also to constantly admire the wonderful architectural monument created in the best traditions of Russian architecture.
- You know that the church was already standing in 1938, as it is now. There was nothing inside, everything was added gradually. In the 50th year, when Metropolitan Anastassy came to illuminate the temple, there were already memorial plaques, but the iconostasis and icons were not there yet. And when, in the year 52, St. John of Shanghai was appointed Bishop (for 12 years he was our bishop), he ordered icons for the church from Matushka Flaviana, who lived in the Lesna Monastery in France. And the iconostasis was painted by Princess Lvova.
Could you tell us about the first priest of the temple?
So Maria Nikolaevna with pleasure delved into the memories of the days of the past, but today's life does not leave her indifferent. She actively takes part both in the life of the parish and in the life of her large family, continues to travel to the homeland of her ancestors, where, by the way, her daughter Elizabeth has been living for 20 years.
When you came to Russia for the first time, what were your feelings?
The first time I went to Russia, to the Soviet Union in 1976. We returned from Africa in 70
. The husband continued to work in Brussels. And the tourist society offered me to go
to the USSR with a group of tourists, Belgians. At first I was scared and refused, but my husband
convinced me. After all, he was born in Russia, and left there when he was 5 years old. In the end I
I went there 30 times, as the leader of a tourist group. As for my first
impressions, they were amazing. Firstly, I heard Russian and it was
amazing. I remember that I was in Moscow on November 1, it was snowing. I lived in the Rossiya Hotel,
which no longer exists. The view from the window of my room was on Varvarka Street, all the churches were
illuminated. I stood, looked at all this and roared.
Did you meet with any of your relatives, acquaintances of your parents, or did your family
leave Russia in its entirety?
Then we were afraid to even make phone calls from the hotel room. But, fortunately, there were telephone booths everywhere. This is how I met my distant relatives. Relatives either
left their homeland or were shot. My mother's brother died at Perekop. He was 18
years old. And my husband's grandmother was shot in Yalta, in December 2020. She was 76 years old. She
was called an enemy of the people, as she was close to Empress Maria Feodorovna.
Shortly before this tragedy, with two daughters and grandchildren, the grandmother and the empress left for
Malta. After that, Maria Fedorovna went to England, and her grandmother wanted to believe that the
end of the Bolsheviks had come and decided to return home, to her estate in Yalta, which in
later became a sanatorium. Kirov. It was there that her tragic death awaited her. Then
, near Yalta, six thousand people were shot. They say that the blood flowed in a stream to Yalta itself.
Throughout the Crimea, two hundred thousand were killed. Grandmother was a widow. Fortunately, my
husband's grandfather passed away in time. He fought in the Japanese War and was wounded there. His name was
Baryatinsky. He accompanied the heir to the throne when he traveled around the world.
How did your relationship with your distant relatives develop?
It's like we've always known each other.
Are your children connected with Russia?
Oh sure. We all now take turns visiting my daughter, who lives in Moscow and does not
is going to leave it, despite the fact that life in Russia is difficult. But she has a wonderful
apartment near the Cathedral of Christ the Savior. This is already the third generation, maybe even
the fourth, given that my mother's parents left Russia with us.
Do your nine grandchildren continue the tradition of speaking Russian at home?
You know, unfortunately, it doesn't work yet. For this I am very angry with my children. But nothing
can be done, because the daughter married a Belgian, and the boys married Belgians.
That's why everyone at home speaks French. But we have a very friendly and close-knit family.
No one quarrels, thank God. And the tradition of the Orthodox faith is passed down from generation to
generation.
All my children are married at St. Job, and I hope that this will happen to my
grandchildren as well. After all, the church we go to helps us maintain the Russian spirit and faith in God.
The archive of Maria Nikolaevna contains many such letters, and all of them are permeated with boundless love for God, great sorrow for loved ones who died untimely through the fault of the Bolsheviks, and incredible spiritual generosity. It is thanks to these people and many like them in spirit that today we can not only come to the church of St. Job to pray, but also to constantly admire the wonderful architectural monument created in the best traditions of Russian architecture.
- You know that the church was already standing in 1938, as it is now. There was nothing inside, everything was added gradually. In the 50th year, when Metropolitan Anastassy came to illuminate the temple, there were already memorial plaques, but the iconostasis and icons were not there yet. And when, in the year 52, St. John of Shanghai was appointed Bishop (for 12 years he was our bishop), he ordered icons for the church from Matushka Flaviana, who lived in the Lesna Monastery in France. And the iconostasis was painted by Princess Lvova.
Could you tell us about the first priest of the temple?
It was Father Vasily Vinogradov. He really did not serve in the temple, but was the head of the
construction committee. In Russia, Father Vasily was the confessor of the cadet corps. Then he was
with General Wrangel and came to Brussels in 27, when the churches split.
In 1932, he fell at a tram stop. Heart. Died. And then Father Alexander
Shabashev arrived from Australia, a protopresbyter. It was a military priest. He wore a cross on the
St. George ribbon. Father was wonderful. These were the first two priests. Then
, of course, there were others.
construction committee. In Russia, Father Vasily was the confessor of the cadet corps. Then he was
with General Wrangel and came to Brussels in 27, when the churches split.
In 1932, he fell at a tram stop. Heart. Died. And then Father Alexander
Shabashev arrived from Australia, a protopresbyter. It was a military priest. He wore a cross on the
St. George ribbon. Father was wonderful. These were the first two priests. Then
, of course, there were others.
So Maria Nikolaevna with pleasure delved into the memories of the days of the past, but today's life does not leave her indifferent. She actively takes part both in the life of the parish and in the life of her large family, continues to travel to the homeland of her ancestors, where, by the way, her daughter Elizabeth has been living for 20 years.
When you came to Russia for the first time, what were your feelings?
The first time I went to Russia, to the Soviet Union in 1976. We returned from Africa in 70
. The husband continued to work in Brussels. And the tourist society offered me to go
to the USSR with a group of tourists, Belgians. At first I was scared and refused, but my husband
convinced me. After all, he was born in Russia, and left there when he was 5 years old. In the end I
I went there 30 times, as the leader of a tourist group. As for my first
impressions, they were amazing. Firstly, I heard Russian and it was
amazing. I remember that I was in Moscow on November 1, it was snowing. I lived in the Rossiya Hotel,
which no longer exists. The view from the window of my room was on Varvarka Street, all the churches were
illuminated. I stood, looked at all this and roared.
Did you meet with any of your relatives, acquaintances of your parents, or did your family
leave Russia in its entirety?
left their homeland or were shot. My mother's brother died at Perekop. He was 18
years old. And my husband's grandmother was shot in Yalta, in December 2020. She was 76 years old. She
was called an enemy of the people, as she was close to Empress Maria Feodorovna.
Shortly before this tragedy, with two daughters and grandchildren, the grandmother and the empress left for
Malta. After that, Maria Fedorovna went to England, and her grandmother wanted to believe that the
end of the Bolsheviks had come and decided to return home, to her estate in Yalta, which in
later became a sanatorium. Kirov. It was there that her tragic death awaited her. Then
, near Yalta, six thousand people were shot. They say that the blood flowed in a stream to Yalta itself.
Throughout the Crimea, two hundred thousand were killed. Grandmother was a widow. Fortunately, my
husband's grandfather passed away in time. He fought in the Japanese War and was wounded there. His name was
Baryatinsky. He accompanied the heir to the throne when he traveled around the world.
How did your relationship with your distant relatives develop?
It's like we've always known each other.
Are your children connected with Russia?
Oh sure. We all now take turns visiting my daughter, who lives in Moscow and does not
is going to leave it, despite the fact that life in Russia is difficult. But she has a wonderful
apartment near the Cathedral of Christ the Savior. This is already the third generation, maybe even
the fourth, given that my mother's parents left Russia with us.
Do your nine grandchildren continue the tradition of speaking Russian at home?
You know, unfortunately, it doesn't work yet. For this I am very angry with my children. But nothing
can be done, because the daughter married a Belgian, and the boys married Belgians.
That's why everyone at home speaks French. But we have a very friendly and close-knit family.
No one quarrels, thank God. And the tradition of the Orthodox faith is passed down from generation to
generation.
All my children are married at St. Job, and I hope that this will happen to my
grandchildren as well. After all, the church we go to helps us maintain the Russian spirit and faith in God.
Andrey V. Drutskoy -Sokolinsky :
"I'm too weak of character to live in Russia."
O It is believed that Russian emigrants are not very solidarity. But this concerns, rather, the post-Soviet wave of emigration to the West. And one cannot but agree with this, especially when comparing it with other diasporas, for example, with Jewish or Chinese, or even with Italian. However, as the hero of our column proves, a descendant of the emigrants of the first wave, without the solidarity of the Russian people who involuntarily found themselves in a foreign country in post-revolutionary times, the Church-Monument of St. Job would not have arisen in Brussels. Indeed, only thanks to the unity of a small group of people who have maintained relations for decades, a church community arose, the head of which for many years was our interlocutor, Prince Andrei Vladimirovich Drutskoy-Sokolinsky.
Talking about Andrei Vladimirovich, who is already 95 years old today, one cannot fail to mention his father, a witness to the revolutionary collapse of the Russian Empire, who personally knew Tsar Nicholas II, as well as the Empress, and who described all this in his memoirs. Undoubtedly, the hard fate of the former governor of Minsk, Prince Vladimir Andreevich Drutsky-Sokolinsky, inevitably affected the life and fate of his son, Andrei Vladimirovich, who, together with his parents, went through the trials that befell the Russian refugees of the first wave of emigration. All of them experienced deep for the fate of their homeland, finding themselves in an environment completely alien to them, sometimes in complete poverty, with incurable nostalgia and without the possibility of ever returning home.
Talking about Andrei Vladimirovich, who is already 95 years old today, one cannot fail to mention his father, a witness to the revolutionary collapse of the Russian Empire, who personally knew Tsar Nicholas II, as well as the Empress, and who described all this in his memoirs. Undoubtedly, the hard fate of the former governor of Minsk, Prince Vladimir Andreevich Drutsky-Sokolinsky, inevitably affected the life and fate of his son, Andrei Vladimirovich, who, together with his parents, went through the trials that befell the Russian refugees of the first wave of emigration. All of them experienced deep for the fate of their homeland, finding themselves in an environment completely alien to them, sometimes in complete poverty, with incurable nostalgia and without the possibility of ever returning home.
Could you share the details of your family history?
Yes, definitely! My father was born in 1880 in St. Petersburg and graduated from the Imperial School of Law there in 1901, one of the privileged educational institutions of that time. Apparently, the social life of St. Petersburg was not to his liking. It seemed to him rather empty, and he went to the provinces, starting his career in Petrokov as head of the governor's office. By the way, the great-granddaughter of this governor is a parishioner of our church - Anastasia Mikhailovna Artsimovich (married to Count Bennigsen). Subsequently, he was transferred to Kostroma, where he lived for seven happy years. He described all his memories in two books. One of them is called "In the Service of the Fatherland: Notes of the Russian Governor", where the father talks about his life from 1914 to 1918. He wrote this book first
What happened next?
After Kostroma, my father was appointed vice-governor of Mogilev. And at the beginning of 1916 he became the governor of Minsk, but he did not have long to serve in this position, a little less than a year. In Minsk, the prince had the good fortune to meet his future wife, my mother, a native Minsker, born Lidia Andreevna Shirkevich. They married in July 1918. By this time, my father had been fired from his governorship. He was arrested by the Cheka, but miraculously he was released. How did your father manage to avoid prison or execution, because he actually refused to cooperate with the new government? Usually, people like him were not spared.
And it was like this: a whole team came to arrest my father. They began to rummage through papers and photographs. Their boss took one photo and said: “Is this Staff Captain Tomisich?” My mother says yes. “I was your late husband's horse cleaner. What a wonderful officer! I still remember him." The search went quickly. Father was taken away anyway, but was soon released, as the denunciation of him turned out to be a pure lie. Soon my father fled to the south of Russia, to the administration of General Denikin. It was at this time that I was born in the city of Ekaterinodar (today Krasnodar). The White Army, in the end, could not find any solution to the political situation, and my father decided that it was necessary to leave Russia. So we ended up in Italy. In May 1920 we landed in Venice. All expenses for our life were taken over by my father's cousin, who lived in Italy. Our émigré life began in Florence. We weren't starving, but we weren't far from it. My father miraculously got a job in a bank. My mother began to help a Russian dressmaker, who created a rather successful business, her own fashion salon. But the crisis of the 30s made itself felt, and we decided to move to Rome for a better life. My mother tried to open a small fashion store. I was then 15 years old.
What was happening in Italy then? What was the situation there?
We are at the wrong time again. Mussolini conquered Ethiopia, sanctions were imposed on Italy. The tourists disappeared completely, and my mother's shop went bust. It ended up that my father started a handicraft business to support the family: the production of the so-called “puzzles”. He pasted the picture on a thin board, and then sawed out the drawing with a jigsaw. I was giving math lessons then. This continued until the death of my father in 1943. Times were tough, we were practically starving.
However, despite the difficulties, you survived and even graduated from the University of Rome with a degree in electrical engineering. How did your professional career develop?
After the war, I had to provide for my family and, fortunately, I got a job with a good salary in the American military organization, which was engaged in monitoring and helping to rebuild everything destroyed during the war, in particular power plants. Here things are already on the upswing. In 1947, I began to look for something more solid and entered the service of an Italian firm, where I worked until 1955. The director of this company took advantage of the fact that I knew English. He took me with him to all sorts of international symposiums in Paris, where later one of the engineers suggested that I move to work in England. Again, because I knew French well, and he was also interested in one project that I was working on at the time.
The fact that you spoke French from early childhood is understandable, based on your noble origin, especially since your grandmother, as I know, was half French. But how did you know English? Did you study it at university?
My father was very foresighted. Despite the fact that he was a great Germanophile, he realized that the future was not in Germany, but in the Anglo-Saxon countries. And from the age of eight I was taught English by an old fat Englishwoman, Miss Bull. She was
a lovely person. I still remember her. And everyone teased me that I danced around the table with her. Since then I have been speaking English.
How was your further destiny? How did you end up
How was your further destiny? How did you end up
in Brussels?
Before Brussels, I lived for 5 years in England, where I met a lovely girl, my future wife, with whom I still live, i.e. 56 years old. I received a decent salary, but since my mother remained in Italy and I had to support her, I began to look for something more interesting again, and a year later I left with my wife for Belgium. But as soon as we moved to Brussels, I was offered to replace my colleague in Baghdad, where we subsequently lived for three years. After that we returned to Brussels and my mother moved in with us in 1963. She lived with us until her death in 1972.
Judging by that huge piano that you have in your living room, is your wife a musician?
When I met her, she was in her third year at the London Conservatory. I so hoped that since my future wife is English, then in the morning I would get bacon and eggs for breakfast, and in the evening she would give concerts. But neither of these things happened. Since the children were born, this piano has not been touched again.
Celia Georgievna, the wife of Andrei Vladimirovich, is fluent in four foreign languages, but most importantly, she speaks excellent Russian. Being married to a Russian for many years, she had to learn not only the language, but also get acquainted with Russian culture, an integral part of which is the Orthodox faith. She owes her knowledge of the Russian language to her mother-in-law, who lived with them for nine years. As for faith, she did not accept it immediately, only 25 years ago. Andrei Vladimirovich did not insist on accepting the faith at all, for his wife belonged to the Anglican Church by religion. But over time, Celia simply felt a connection and spiritual closeness with the Russian Orthodox Church, she was fascinated by the rites and the very spirit of Orthodoxy. Celia has been singing in the church choir for many years. The parishioners of the church of that time, the same descendants of the white emigration,
Was the Orthodox faith instilled in you from childhood, or did you become a believer already at a conscious age?
My father was a very pious man. He was the headman in the church in Florence, a wonderful church built long before the revolution. Naturally, I grew up in a deeply Orthodox family and never questioned my faith. When I arrived in Brussels, there was a small group of people, most of whom belonged to a well-known class. When I came to church, I knew almost everyone personally. The same was true in Rome and Florence. All of us, emigrants, met and communicated thanks to the church. In Rome at that time there was a Russian colony, with a Russian club and a Russian library. They swore, gossiped, got offended, and, in spite of everything, clung to each other. When I arrived here at the temple, I was accepted as one of their own. This was in 1963. The community already existed. Then there was the rector John of Shanghai, who was later canonized as a saint. I just kept him for a couple of months. It was hard to forget him. He walked in sandals on his bare feet, with his long hair loose. He was a saint.
So how were you received in the church?
The first time I appeared there, and I was approached by such a stern man, a huge, Russian hero who spent his entire working life in Africa. It was Prince Vsevolod Mikhailovich Obolensky. He extended his hand to me and, smiling, said: “I am Obolensky. Do you think you live near me? I hope we see each other often." Then we got acquainted with the Apraksin family, the Nabokovs and others. Life was very limited by this society, although we also communicated with the Belgians, but we were united by the language, common political views, of course, faith and Russian culture.
What, in your opinion, does the concept of “Russian culture” contain, and how has this very culture influenced your life? You have never lived in Russia.
Even though I really never lived in Russia, I grew up in Russian culture, my life was spent in it. I know old Russian literature, art, and Russian history in general well. My father read wonderfully, he read something to us in the evening almost every day. With feeling, with sense, with arrangement. I know some things, Gogol, for example, almost by heart. It was Russian culture for me, which still lives in me. Modern Russian literature is incomprehensible to me. I tried to read several Russian authors, Aksenov, for example, but I didn't like it. I blame myself for this. One cannot dwell on Tolstoy when time moves forward and literature develops along with society. But such a phenomenon as the rejection of anything new is ubiquitous for the elderly.
When did you first come to Russia? What were your impressions?
I went there for the first time only in 1978. Before that, I did not have a Belgian passport, but only a Nansen refugee document. And as soon as I received a Belgian passport, the first thing I did was go to the homeland of my ancestors. It was a big shock for me to suddenly find myself in a country where everyone speaks Russian. There was a small incident with me right at the airport at customs. When I went through passport control, I had a bag hanging on my shoulder, which contained a Belgian newspaper and the English magazine Time international magazine. I was allowed to keep the newspaper, but the KGB was interested in the magazine, and it was confiscated because it contained an article about the Soviet Union. This caused a lot of questions from the KGB. After all, we, the descendants of the aristocracy, were considered enemies and traitors. Thank God, everything worked out. I was only interrogated and given a protocol to sign. Soon I was released. I was very scared, I thought that I would be somewhere in Siberia. This, no doubt, slightly disturbed my euphoria, which I experienced when I heard Russian speech everywhere. I was shocked at how life is there.
Did you see in Russia what you wanted to see?
No, I didn't.
Before Brussels, I lived for 5 years in England, where I met a lovely girl, my future wife, with whom I still live, i.e. 56 years old. I received a decent salary, but since my mother remained in Italy and I had to support her, I began to look for something more interesting again, and a year later I left with my wife for Belgium. But as soon as we moved to Brussels, I was offered to replace my colleague in Baghdad, where we subsequently lived for three years. After that we returned to Brussels and my mother moved in with us in 1963. She lived with us until her death in 1972.
Judging by that huge piano that you have in your living room, is your wife a musician?
When I met her, she was in her third year at the London Conservatory. I so hoped that since my future wife is English, then in the morning I would get bacon and eggs for breakfast, and in the evening she would give concerts. But neither of these things happened. Since the children were born, this piano has not been touched again.
Celia Georgievna, the wife of Andrei Vladimirovich, is fluent in four foreign languages, but most importantly, she speaks excellent Russian. Being married to a Russian for many years, she had to learn not only the language, but also get acquainted with Russian culture, an integral part of which is the Orthodox faith. She owes her knowledge of the Russian language to her mother-in-law, who lived with them for nine years. As for faith, she did not accept it immediately, only 25 years ago. Andrei Vladimirovich did not insist on accepting the faith at all, for his wife belonged to the Anglican Church by religion. But over time, Celia simply felt a connection and spiritual closeness with the Russian Orthodox Church, she was fascinated by the rites and the very spirit of Orthodoxy. Celia has been singing in the church choir for many years. The parishioners of the church of that time, the same descendants of the white emigration,
Was the Orthodox faith instilled in you from childhood, or did you become a believer already at a conscious age?
My father was a very pious man. He was the headman in the church in Florence, a wonderful church built long before the revolution. Naturally, I grew up in a deeply Orthodox family and never questioned my faith. When I arrived in Brussels, there was a small group of people, most of whom belonged to a well-known class. When I came to church, I knew almost everyone personally. The same was true in Rome and Florence. All of us, emigrants, met and communicated thanks to the church. In Rome at that time there was a Russian colony, with a Russian club and a Russian library. They swore, gossiped, got offended, and, in spite of everything, clung to each other. When I arrived here at the temple, I was accepted as one of their own. This was in 1963. The community already existed. Then there was the rector John of Shanghai, who was later canonized as a saint. I just kept him for a couple of months. It was hard to forget him. He walked in sandals on his bare feet, with his long hair loose. He was a saint.
So how were you received in the church?
The first time I appeared there, and I was approached by such a stern man, a huge, Russian hero who spent his entire working life in Africa. It was Prince Vsevolod Mikhailovich Obolensky. He extended his hand to me and, smiling, said: “I am Obolensky. Do you think you live near me? I hope we see each other often." Then we got acquainted with the Apraksin family, the Nabokovs and others. Life was very limited by this society, although we also communicated with the Belgians, but we were united by the language, common political views, of course, faith and Russian culture.
What, in your opinion, does the concept of “Russian culture” contain, and how has this very culture influenced your life? You have never lived in Russia.
Even though I really never lived in Russia, I grew up in Russian culture, my life was spent in it. I know old Russian literature, art, and Russian history in general well. My father read wonderfully, he read something to us in the evening almost every day. With feeling, with sense, with arrangement. I know some things, Gogol, for example, almost by heart. It was Russian culture for me, which still lives in me. Modern Russian literature is incomprehensible to me. I tried to read several Russian authors, Aksenov, for example, but I didn't like it. I blame myself for this. One cannot dwell on Tolstoy when time moves forward and literature develops along with society. But such a phenomenon as the rejection of anything new is ubiquitous for the elderly.
When did you first come to Russia? What were your impressions?
I went there for the first time only in 1978. Before that, I did not have a Belgian passport, but only a Nansen refugee document. And as soon as I received a Belgian passport, the first thing I did was go to the homeland of my ancestors. It was a big shock for me to suddenly find myself in a country where everyone speaks Russian. There was a small incident with me right at the airport at customs. When I went through passport control, I had a bag hanging on my shoulder, which contained a Belgian newspaper and the English magazine Time international magazine. I was allowed to keep the newspaper, but the KGB was interested in the magazine, and it was confiscated because it contained an article about the Soviet Union. This caused a lot of questions from the KGB. After all, we, the descendants of the aristocracy, were considered enemies and traitors. Thank God, everything worked out. I was only interrogated and given a protocol to sign. Soon I was released. I was very scared, I thought that I would be somewhere in Siberia. This, no doubt, slightly disturbed my euphoria, which I experienced when I heard Russian speech everywhere. I was shocked at how life is there.
Did you see in Russia what you wanted to see?
No, I didn't.
Didn't you guess how people lived in the Soviet Union? Could you get reliable information about life in Russia?
Yes, there was negative information, because in our environment we knew that there were political repressions, and in those days they were extensive. But it is one thing to know and another to see. I was still drawn to Russia, the people themselves were close to me, despite the rudeness towards people towards each other that prevailed in Russia at that time. We may have become accustomed to superficial courtesy and decency, sometimes not sincere, but this is better, in my opinion, than the overt rudeness that was so sensitive in the Soviet Union, in stores, everywhere. However, there were a lot of nicer cases. For example, everyone told us that if there are difficulties with transport, stop the car, and people will immediately understand that you are foreigners. They will take you anywhere. True, for this service they received a pack of American cigarettes from us, but I do not think that they counted on this.
Did you manage to personally communicate with Russian people, talk heart to heart with someone? After all, then foreign groups coming to the Soviet Union were under the supervision of the KGB and the behavior of foreigners was strictly controlled.
Yes, once a rather interesting adventure happened to us, when some “comrade” kindly gave us a ride, who refused to take a pack of cigarettes and offered to come to visit him, just to talk. He left his address and my wife and I went to see him the next day. Probably now I would be afraid, but then I was a rather naive person, despite the fact that so many people disappeared. In many countries, Russians disappeared, especially from that “refugee” class. So, this man lived in a fairly decent room, which again alerted me. After all, then in the Union, few people lived in such rooms. I told him about myself, about life in Belgium. Now I don’t remember who this man was, but he probably held some high position. He told me the following about himself: “You know, I won’t be able to live in this country for long, because we all live in a lie. And I don't want my children to be brought up where lies reign." I answered him cautiously that not everything is so clean here either. In any case, everything ended peacefully, and three years later I received a postcard from America from him.
Do you feel Russian, despite the fact that you have never lived in Russia, your wife is English and you have worked in many European countries?
Yes, I consider myself Russian.
But at the same time, do you consider yourself a European as well?
Of course! But culturally I will always be for Russia. I understand that Putin, of course, is far from Cameron and in many ways I do not approve of his policies, but he is better than Stalin. Some say no, which is even worse, but I don't agree with that. Yes, there is far from an ideal political system, but Russia has its own destiny, its own becoming, and one cannot condemn this indiscriminately "... One can only believe in Russia." After all, Putin, no matter how "KGBist" he is, is an intelligent person. Russia is not yet ripe for British democracy. It cannot be expected that after Gorbachev a parliament will immediately appear in Russia, as in England, a free press, and so on. Russia is a heavyweight where everything is done slowly. This is in the nature of the Russian. There is no hurry, there is time...
Do you also have a similar character?
Unfortunately yes.
Have you personally ever wanted to return to Russia with your experience and somehow help raise the spiritual level of the country, help with your knowledge at a professional level?
It always seemed to me that it was especially justified before perestroika that I simply could not stand the standard of living, the surrounding rudeness, harsh treatment. I want to confess my cowardice. What I could do and how much benefit to bring is much more important than my personal fears and resentment that someone was rude to me in a restaurant, transport or store. From this there would be nothing terrible. We had a fight and it's over. In this sense, I am too weak of character. I really value my life situation, the cultural level that is manifested in the little things of everyday life. Although in Russia there are so many discoveries in science, technology, and culture! After all, look, a lot of famous musicians in the world are mostly Russian, both performers and composers.
It turns out that you actually found Russia abroad, your own Russia, and this is directly connected with faith, with the church. For a very long time you were the warden of St. Job in Brussels. Tell me, is there a difference between parishioners and cultural life within the church in those days and today?
Now the life of the temple has changed a lot. This happened relatively recently. In my case, recently is about 20 years ago. We had a very difficult moment with the rector. At that time, everything was moving towards the merging of the Orthodox Church Abroad with the Moscow Patriarchate. Many were against it, including the abbot. However, the group of parishioners of our church, who historically understood the need for such a merger, was in favor. Of course, small parishes in Europe cannot be compared with 50 million Orthodox in Russia. But we agreed with this merger, and it happened by decision of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. Thank God, then everything calmed down.
What happened to the priest afterwards?
And the priest was excommunicated. All these events took place in the 2000s. Until that time, the organization of the parish was family. But after passing this case through the Belgian court, we had to immediately organize the work of the church in accordance with the existing Belgian laws. Since then, Dmitry Alekseevich Gereng has been brilliantly engaged in this matter. Everything is according to the charter, everything is according to the law, all meetings are on time, often. When I was headman, we met no more than two or three times a year. This suited me very much, however, Maria Nikolaevna Apraksina and others helped me a lot then. My time as head girl passed very easily. I myself resigned due to senile infirmities, because I was almost blind and hard of hearing.
And how did the situation in the church change after that fracture?
Has changed. For example, I don't know anyone in the church. And I am delighted when I see a large number of people at the service. As many people as I see on Sunday were only on Easter. Otherwise, we all knew. There is such a Nabokov family who had seven children. I remember how one of our rectors, brilliant rectors, Father Dimitry Khvostov, said that if the Nabokovs are here, then the church is full.
Which of the priests was closest to you in spirit? Who do you remember the most?
It was Father Dimitry Khvostov who was that priest. He was an outstanding man, deeply spiritual, but also secular. Many still remember his sharp jokes.
Yes, there was negative information, because in our environment we knew that there were political repressions, and in those days they were extensive. But it is one thing to know and another to see. I was still drawn to Russia, the people themselves were close to me, despite the rudeness towards people towards each other that prevailed in Russia at that time. We may have become accustomed to superficial courtesy and decency, sometimes not sincere, but this is better, in my opinion, than the overt rudeness that was so sensitive in the Soviet Union, in stores, everywhere. However, there were a lot of nicer cases. For example, everyone told us that if there are difficulties with transport, stop the car, and people will immediately understand that you are foreigners. They will take you anywhere. True, for this service they received a pack of American cigarettes from us, but I do not think that they counted on this.
Did you manage to personally communicate with Russian people, talk heart to heart with someone? After all, then foreign groups coming to the Soviet Union were under the supervision of the KGB and the behavior of foreigners was strictly controlled.
Yes, once a rather interesting adventure happened to us, when some “comrade” kindly gave us a ride, who refused to take a pack of cigarettes and offered to come to visit him, just to talk. He left his address and my wife and I went to see him the next day. Probably now I would be afraid, but then I was a rather naive person, despite the fact that so many people disappeared. In many countries, Russians disappeared, especially from that “refugee” class. So, this man lived in a fairly decent room, which again alerted me. After all, then in the Union, few people lived in such rooms. I told him about myself, about life in Belgium. Now I don’t remember who this man was, but he probably held some high position. He told me the following about himself: “You know, I won’t be able to live in this country for long, because we all live in a lie. And I don't want my children to be brought up where lies reign." I answered him cautiously that not everything is so clean here either. In any case, everything ended peacefully, and three years later I received a postcard from America from him.
Do you feel Russian, despite the fact that you have never lived in Russia, your wife is English and you have worked in many European countries?
Yes, I consider myself Russian.
But at the same time, do you consider yourself a European as well?
Of course! But culturally I will always be for Russia. I understand that Putin, of course, is far from Cameron and in many ways I do not approve of his policies, but he is better than Stalin. Some say no, which is even worse, but I don't agree with that. Yes, there is far from an ideal political system, but Russia has its own destiny, its own becoming, and one cannot condemn this indiscriminately "... One can only believe in Russia." After all, Putin, no matter how "KGBist" he is, is an intelligent person. Russia is not yet ripe for British democracy. It cannot be expected that after Gorbachev a parliament will immediately appear in Russia, as in England, a free press, and so on. Russia is a heavyweight where everything is done slowly. This is in the nature of the Russian. There is no hurry, there is time...
Do you also have a similar character?
Unfortunately yes.
Have you personally ever wanted to return to Russia with your experience and somehow help raise the spiritual level of the country, help with your knowledge at a professional level?
It always seemed to me that it was especially justified before perestroika that I simply could not stand the standard of living, the surrounding rudeness, harsh treatment. I want to confess my cowardice. What I could do and how much benefit to bring is much more important than my personal fears and resentment that someone was rude to me in a restaurant, transport or store. From this there would be nothing terrible. We had a fight and it's over. In this sense, I am too weak of character. I really value my life situation, the cultural level that is manifested in the little things of everyday life. Although in Russia there are so many discoveries in science, technology, and culture! After all, look, a lot of famous musicians in the world are mostly Russian, both performers and composers.
It turns out that you actually found Russia abroad, your own Russia, and this is directly connected with faith, with the church. For a very long time you were the warden of St. Job in Brussels. Tell me, is there a difference between parishioners and cultural life within the church in those days and today?
Now the life of the temple has changed a lot. This happened relatively recently. In my case, recently is about 20 years ago. We had a very difficult moment with the rector. At that time, everything was moving towards the merging of the Orthodox Church Abroad with the Moscow Patriarchate. Many were against it, including the abbot. However, the group of parishioners of our church, who historically understood the need for such a merger, was in favor. Of course, small parishes in Europe cannot be compared with 50 million Orthodox in Russia. But we agreed with this merger, and it happened by decision of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. Thank God, then everything calmed down.
What happened to the priest afterwards?
And the priest was excommunicated. All these events took place in the 2000s. Until that time, the organization of the parish was family. But after passing this case through the Belgian court, we had to immediately organize the work of the church in accordance with the existing Belgian laws. Since then, Dmitry Alekseevich Gereng has been brilliantly engaged in this matter. Everything is according to the charter, everything is according to the law, all meetings are on time, often. When I was headman, we met no more than two or three times a year. This suited me very much, however, Maria Nikolaevna Apraksina and others helped me a lot then. My time as head girl passed very easily. I myself resigned due to senile infirmities, because I was almost blind and hard of hearing.
And how did the situation in the church change after that fracture?
Has changed. For example, I don't know anyone in the church. And I am delighted when I see a large number of people at the service. As many people as I see on Sunday were only on Easter. Otherwise, we all knew. There is such a Nabokov family who had seven children. I remember how one of our rectors, brilliant rectors, Father Dimitry Khvostov, said that if the Nabokovs are here, then the church is full.
Which of the priests was closest to you in spirit? Who do you remember the most?
It was Father Dimitry Khvostov who was that priest. He was an outstanding man, deeply spiritual, but also secular. Many still remember his sharp jokes.
Tell about your family. Have your children converted to Orthodoxy?
All three of our children, two boys and a girl, are married and have 9 grandchildren. All baptized in the Orthodox faith.
Do you keep any family Russian traditions? In your father’s book “In the Service of the Fatherland”, he perfectly describes how Easter was celebrated in your family every year, what a great holiday it was for the whole family, with what reverence they waited for it, recalls the traditions that were repeated from year to year, rituals , which were familiar to everyone, and even some of the expressions of Prince Vladimir Andreevich, which he uttered with enviable constancy. Is there something similar in your family?
Of course, during Holy Week we observe more or less the order so touchingly described by my father. And we end with a solemn conversation. Christmas is celebrated according to the English tradition.
What would you wish today to the young parishioners of our church?
The young people who go to church today are much more Russian than I am. Anyway, I would wish them not to forget Russian culture and literature. And, despite what they say today about Russia, they believed in this great country. I hope that my children and grandchildren will still be proud of the fact that Russian blood flows in them. As a Christian, I hope that Russian Orthodoxy will get out of the rut in which it is stuck today and become more open and tolerant of the evolution of world culture.
The interview was recorded by Tatyana Andrievskaya.
Arriving at the Sunday service at the Church of St. Job in Brussels, one cannot miss the glance of a stately, very tall, gray-haired man who, following the priest, delivers his sermon in French. It is amazing how long and complex passages of the Sunday sermon he has to memorize and literally translate to the French-speaking parishioners of the temple. And this charismatic giant, Dmitry Alekseevich Gering, a native of a noble family of the first wave of Russian emigration, became the next hero of our Interview column. My choice did not accidentally fall on this person. After all, Dmitry Alekseevich, following the family tradition, is not only one of the most active participants in parish life, but, being both a learned man and a theologian, he was able to erase all sorts of contradictions between science and religion, at least for himself personally.
Dmitry Alekseevich, please tell us how you ended up in Belgium?
I was born in Belgium and my parents came here at different times. My father was here in the twenties of the last century. At first he lived with his mother in Germany, and then moved to Belgium, because the local Cardinal Mercier gave scholarships to young Russians. Thus, the father had the opportunity to graduate from the University of Louvain. My mother left Russia as a child. Her family lived in Nice, and then, around 1938, my mother moved to Brussels, where she met my father.
A bit of family history. Who were your ancestors?
Mom's line is the Shinshins, the nobles of the Oryol Province. One of the members of this family was the poet Fet, who all his life wanted to take the surname Shinshin, but this was impossible for all sorts of reasons of that time. Leo Tolstoy, with whom they were very friendly, once told Fet that if he were Shinshin, he would have a surname, and so, he has a name. My ancestors on my father's side came from Germany, Saxony, and they were all military men and lived in the St. Petersburg province. My great-grandfather and grandfather were generals. Grandfather Shinshin was killed in 1916 during the war, and my grandfather Goering left Russia after the revolution.
Do you have any information about how they left, how it all happened?
My mother's family left Russia on that famous steamship, which in the 1920s sent intelligentsia such as Bulgakov, Berdyaev and many others. First they came to Germany, then to Nice. On my father's side, his parents divorced, after which my grandmother left for Europe through Finland, and my grandfather then went to Germany. Then it was enough just to leave Russia, back in the twenties there was no "iron curtain", as then in the thirties.
How was the fate of your relatives?
My dad graduated from the agricultural faculty and was sent to the Netherlands colonies in Indonesia, but due to health reasons he could not stay in tropical countries for a long time. In Belgium, my father was no longer working by profession, so the money issue was acute for us. But, despite this, he gave me and my brother Philip the opportunity to get a higher education.
The father's brother remained in Soviet Russia because he could not leave in time. Uncle Dmitry was arrested in 1934. It was the moment of Kirov's assassination. Then many were arrested, especially those who worked in the place that Kirov had visited shortly before his death. And that was excuse enough to put anyone in jail. He was released in 1939, but rehabilitated only after his death in the 50s. There was no relationship between father and brother. In the early 60s, we learned that he had died and that he had a son, Alexei Dmitrievich. That is why, as a student, I specially got a job in a travel agency in order to get to Russia and meet relatives there. My cousin and I still maintain a close relationship.
What were your impressions of Russia?
For me it was a shock, my arrival in Russia. The first impression was very strong. It was unrealistic to hear people speak Russian. See the Kremlin and everything that I saw only in pictures! However, my perception of Russia has changed over the years. We had no sympathy for the USSR. Rather, on the contrary, a definitely tough attitude towards him. But I made friends with relatives and also other people who were very close to the democratic movement. I was lucky to meet very good and worthy people. Later, I met a circle of people already in my profession, with scientists in the field of nuclear energy. I was very interested and worried about the fate of Russia, and I have always followed the events in Russia, the changes, observing the dynamics of the country's development from my university years to the present day.
How do you feel about Russia? Is it an abstract country for you or do you feel kindred, genetic ties with it?
It would be most correct to return to the 19th century and recall the words of Herzen, who was a Westerner, but was friends with the Slavophiles, and spoke of their union as a two-faced Janus, whose heads are turned in different directions, but the heart beats the same. On this issue, I agree with him. He said this: as a Westerner, I love Russia no less than you Slavophiles! My point of view on Russia is closer to Westernizers than to rabid Slavophiles. Or in other words, I love Russia, but maybe the wrong Russia.
What can you, in fact, a Westerner with a Russian soul, say about today's Russia, on the course chosen by the country?
25 years have already passed since the collapse of the USSR and one generation has grown up. I would like the fate of Russia, the life of Russians, the environment in Russia, so that everything improves. I mean that in this country, where the entire periodic table, oil and gas are in the bowels, in a country with a history, where there was and is science, where there is culture, where there is an Orthodox tradition, I would like people to live better, that those things that seem natural to us here, for example, health care, housing, education and science, freedom of speech in the media, so that all this is accessible to Russian people. after the collapse of the Soviet Union and after all those 40 million victims, not counting the Second World War, that the USSR brought with it, as a person with a Russian soul, I would like it to be better.
Do you think it's possible?
If this is not possible in Russia, then it will not be possible anywhere. I believe that Russia has everything to achieve this.
You know history and literature very well. You understand that only a select few lived well in Rus'. In fact, there has never been a civil society, a middle class in Russia, and it still does not exist... Over the centuries, little has changed, despite new technologies, raw materials, etc. The way ordinary people live in Russia is unthinkable. Are you idealizing the picture, the image of Russia that you have before your eyes?
First, in Europe, too, the peasantry was begging, there was famine and there was no middle class, there was a proletariat. Why is European evolution impossible in Russia? And for me, as a person with Russian roots, the image of Russia that exists in the West today is unpleasant. But we cannot say for one hundred percent that this image is wrong. It cannot be said that this is just anti-Russian propaganda.
When such Russophobic sentiments prevail in Europe, how do you feel?
It hurts me, but I cannot agree with those people who believe that if you are Russian, you cannot criticize Russia. Again I will return to Herzen, with whom I may not agree on everything, but he was a prominent man of the 19th century. And he loved Russia, rooted for Russia, suffered for Russia. I have similar feelings.
Do you think that Russia could follow the path of Western Europe? Or perhaps Russia has its own notorious “special path”? After all, according to many historians, the Mongol-Tatars pushed back the development of the country by 200-300 years ago. Do you have the feeling that Russia is simply not yet ripe for Western democracy?
I understand what you are talking about. This point of view about a special path has been around for a long time, but my opinion is slightly different. I believe that Russia is part of Europe. You are right about the Mongol-Tatar period and that it influenced the fate of Russia. But wait, when was that? All this stopped under Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century. It's time to forget about this moment. There must be some kind of evolution in 500 years! Therefore, I do not really see this “special path” for Russia. And besides, I think that one has to be very careful with this vision. Why? Because thanks to such an interpretation, a lot can be explained and a lot can be accepted.
I would like to add that I associate this "special path" with the Orthodox faith. After all, this is obvious from the example of how Catholicism develops and how conservative and unchanged Orthodoxy is. This distinguishes the thinking of Russians from the Western perception of the world. Thought creates action. And the path is made up of actions.
This is already a serious question. Firstly, as a person who is quite familiar with theology, I want to note that Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy are Christian religions. Secondly, we have more in common than different. And there is no need to identify Orthodoxy as a whole with Russian Orthodoxy. Let us not forget that there are Orthodox countries in Europe. Take Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and part of Poland. Here we must think about the originality of Russian Orthodoxy. Maybe it's not very interesting for your readers?
Why? These are not only listeners, but also parishioners. I think these questions are quite relevant, because many immigrants from Russia here live in the West, then return home, but while they are here, they have an endless comparative process in their heads, they are trying to understand how you, the emigrants of the first wave, who were already born here, live, how the world perceives, how you relate to Russia, to the same Orthodoxy. Therefore, I consider it extremely important and interesting to listen to your point of view.
Our church is absolutely unique. Neither in the West nor in Russia is there such a temple that was built by Russian emigrants in memory of the Russian victims of the revolution, including in honor of the royal family. And here I completely agree with Father Leonid (the priest of our church), who sees Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians, and Belgians praying together. This temple was built purely by Russians, but we see that the Orthodox of all countries are praying. This is the role of Orthodoxy, which unites rather than divides, which is open to the West and does not engage in proselytism. And it is not for nothing that, with the blessing of our Archbishop, the Gospel is read in French, and it is not for nothing that the sermon is spoken in two languages or translated into the local language. I am very happy.
What is your role in the church? You are quite a prominent person, your voice sounds along with the voice of the priest. You simultaneously translate sermons and convey to people the words of the priest. What else are you doing for the temple? As far as I know, your parents took an active part in the life of the parish. Do you continue their line?
Why am I active in the temple? Because among those who started this project were my grandfather on my mother's side, the second husband of my grandmother. My aunt was on the first building committee and also my wife's uncle. When in the 1950s a church elder was needed, my father became one. I'm following the same line. Today I am the chairman of the Construction Committee, a public organization with 39 members. The temple legally belongs to her. The complete restoration of the territory and the temple from 2010 to 2014 was financed by the Belgian state and the Building Committee.
Who are these people from the Construction Committee?
Basically, these are people of Russian origin, descendants of the first wave of emigration. According to the charter of this organization, it is not necessary to be Orthodox. My grandfather, for example, was a Protestant, a Lutheran, and this shows the breadth of our views. There are Belgians there, Orthodox or non-Orthodox, those to whom this temple is dear. They deal with the material part.
Why is Belgium funding the Orthodox Church?
It is protected by the state as a monument of history and architecture, and we received 80 percent of the funds for the restoration of the temple and its territory. We must not forget the fact that Orthodoxy is recognized here by the Constitution and the state pays the salary of the priest and pays part of the expenses associated with the cult of worship.
Dmitry Alekseevich, please tell us how you ended up in Belgium?
I was born in Belgium and my parents came here at different times. My father was here in the twenties of the last century. At first he lived with his mother in Germany, and then moved to Belgium, because the local Cardinal Mercier gave scholarships to young Russians. Thus, the father had the opportunity to graduate from the University of Louvain. My mother left Russia as a child. Her family lived in Nice, and then, around 1938, my mother moved to Brussels, where she met my father.
A bit of family history. Who were your ancestors?
Mom's line is the Shinshins, the nobles of the Oryol Province. One of the members of this family was the poet Fet, who all his life wanted to take the surname Shinshin, but this was impossible for all sorts of reasons of that time. Leo Tolstoy, with whom they were very friendly, once told Fet that if he were Shinshin, he would have a surname, and so, he has a name. My ancestors on my father's side came from Germany, Saxony, and they were all military men and lived in the St. Petersburg province. My great-grandfather and grandfather were generals. Grandfather Shinshin was killed in 1916 during the war, and my grandfather Goering left Russia after the revolution.
Do you have any information about how they left, how it all happened?
My mother's family left Russia on that famous steamship, which in the 1920s sent intelligentsia such as Bulgakov, Berdyaev and many others. First they came to Germany, then to Nice. On my father's side, his parents divorced, after which my grandmother left for Europe through Finland, and my grandfather then went to Germany. Then it was enough just to leave Russia, back in the twenties there was no "iron curtain", as then in the thirties.
How was the fate of your relatives?
My dad graduated from the agricultural faculty and was sent to the Netherlands colonies in Indonesia, but due to health reasons he could not stay in tropical countries for a long time. In Belgium, my father was no longer working by profession, so the money issue was acute for us. But, despite this, he gave me and my brother Philip the opportunity to get a higher education.
The father's brother remained in Soviet Russia because he could not leave in time. Uncle Dmitry was arrested in 1934. It was the moment of Kirov's assassination. Then many were arrested, especially those who worked in the place that Kirov had visited shortly before his death. And that was excuse enough to put anyone in jail. He was released in 1939, but rehabilitated only after his death in the 50s. There was no relationship between father and brother. In the early 60s, we learned that he had died and that he had a son, Alexei Dmitrievich. That is why, as a student, I specially got a job in a travel agency in order to get to Russia and meet relatives there. My cousin and I still maintain a close relationship.
What were your impressions of Russia?
For me it was a shock, my arrival in Russia. The first impression was very strong. It was unrealistic to hear people speak Russian. See the Kremlin and everything that I saw only in pictures! However, my perception of Russia has changed over the years. We had no sympathy for the USSR. Rather, on the contrary, a definitely tough attitude towards him. But I made friends with relatives and also other people who were very close to the democratic movement. I was lucky to meet very good and worthy people. Later, I met a circle of people already in my profession, with scientists in the field of nuclear energy. I was very interested and worried about the fate of Russia, and I have always followed the events in Russia, the changes, observing the dynamics of the country's development from my university years to the present day.
How do you feel about Russia? Is it an abstract country for you or do you feel kindred, genetic ties with it?
It would be most correct to return to the 19th century and recall the words of Herzen, who was a Westerner, but was friends with the Slavophiles, and spoke of their union as a two-faced Janus, whose heads are turned in different directions, but the heart beats the same. On this issue, I agree with him. He said this: as a Westerner, I love Russia no less than you Slavophiles! My point of view on Russia is closer to Westernizers than to rabid Slavophiles. Or in other words, I love Russia, but maybe the wrong Russia.
What can you, in fact, a Westerner with a Russian soul, say about today's Russia, on the course chosen by the country?
25 years have already passed since the collapse of the USSR and one generation has grown up. I would like the fate of Russia, the life of Russians, the environment in Russia, so that everything improves. I mean that in this country, where the entire periodic table, oil and gas are in the bowels, in a country with a history, where there was and is science, where there is culture, where there is an Orthodox tradition, I would like people to live better, that those things that seem natural to us here, for example, health care, housing, education and science, freedom of speech in the media, so that all this is accessible to Russian people. after the collapse of the Soviet Union and after all those 40 million victims, not counting the Second World War, that the USSR brought with it, as a person with a Russian soul, I would like it to be better.
Do you think it's possible?
If this is not possible in Russia, then it will not be possible anywhere. I believe that Russia has everything to achieve this.
You know history and literature very well. You understand that only a select few lived well in Rus'. In fact, there has never been a civil society, a middle class in Russia, and it still does not exist... Over the centuries, little has changed, despite new technologies, raw materials, etc. The way ordinary people live in Russia is unthinkable. Are you idealizing the picture, the image of Russia that you have before your eyes?
First, in Europe, too, the peasantry was begging, there was famine and there was no middle class, there was a proletariat. Why is European evolution impossible in Russia? And for me, as a person with Russian roots, the image of Russia that exists in the West today is unpleasant. But we cannot say for one hundred percent that this image is wrong. It cannot be said that this is just anti-Russian propaganda.
When such Russophobic sentiments prevail in Europe, how do you feel?
It hurts me, but I cannot agree with those people who believe that if you are Russian, you cannot criticize Russia. Again I will return to Herzen, with whom I may not agree on everything, but he was a prominent man of the 19th century. And he loved Russia, rooted for Russia, suffered for Russia. I have similar feelings.
Do you think that Russia could follow the path of Western Europe? Or perhaps Russia has its own notorious “special path”? After all, according to many historians, the Mongol-Tatars pushed back the development of the country by 200-300 years ago. Do you have the feeling that Russia is simply not yet ripe for Western democracy?
I understand what you are talking about. This point of view about a special path has been around for a long time, but my opinion is slightly different. I believe that Russia is part of Europe. You are right about the Mongol-Tatar period and that it influenced the fate of Russia. But wait, when was that? All this stopped under Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century. It's time to forget about this moment. There must be some kind of evolution in 500 years! Therefore, I do not really see this “special path” for Russia. And besides, I think that one has to be very careful with this vision. Why? Because thanks to such an interpretation, a lot can be explained and a lot can be accepted.
I would like to add that I associate this "special path" with the Orthodox faith. After all, this is obvious from the example of how Catholicism develops and how conservative and unchanged Orthodoxy is. This distinguishes the thinking of Russians from the Western perception of the world. Thought creates action. And the path is made up of actions.
This is already a serious question. Firstly, as a person who is quite familiar with theology, I want to note that Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy are Christian religions. Secondly, we have more in common than different. And there is no need to identify Orthodoxy as a whole with Russian Orthodoxy. Let us not forget that there are Orthodox countries in Europe. Take Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and part of Poland. Here we must think about the originality of Russian Orthodoxy. Maybe it's not very interesting for your readers?
Why? These are not only listeners, but also parishioners. I think these questions are quite relevant, because many immigrants from Russia here live in the West, then return home, but while they are here, they have an endless comparative process in their heads, they are trying to understand how you, the emigrants of the first wave, who were already born here, live, how the world perceives, how you relate to Russia, to the same Orthodoxy. Therefore, I consider it extremely important and interesting to listen to your point of view.
Our church is absolutely unique. Neither in the West nor in Russia is there such a temple that was built by Russian emigrants in memory of the Russian victims of the revolution, including in honor of the royal family. And here I completely agree with Father Leonid (the priest of our church), who sees Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians, and Belgians praying together. This temple was built purely by Russians, but we see that the Orthodox of all countries are praying. This is the role of Orthodoxy, which unites rather than divides, which is open to the West and does not engage in proselytism. And it is not for nothing that, with the blessing of our Archbishop, the Gospel is read in French, and it is not for nothing that the sermon is spoken in two languages or translated into the local language. I am very happy.
What is your role in the church? You are quite a prominent person, your voice sounds along with the voice of the priest. You simultaneously translate sermons and convey to people the words of the priest. What else are you doing for the temple? As far as I know, your parents took an active part in the life of the parish. Do you continue their line?
Why am I active in the temple? Because among those who started this project were my grandfather on my mother's side, the second husband of my grandmother. My aunt was on the first building committee and also my wife's uncle. When in the 1950s a church elder was needed, my father became one. I'm following the same line. Today I am the chairman of the Construction Committee, a public organization with 39 members. The temple legally belongs to her. The complete restoration of the territory and the temple from 2010 to 2014 was financed by the Belgian state and the Building Committee.
Who are these people from the Construction Committee?
Basically, these are people of Russian origin, descendants of the first wave of emigration. According to the charter of this organization, it is not necessary to be Orthodox. My grandfather, for example, was a Protestant, a Lutheran, and this shows the breadth of our views. There are Belgians there, Orthodox or non-Orthodox, those to whom this temple is dear. They deal with the material part.
Why is Belgium funding the Orthodox Church?
It is protected by the state as a monument of history and architecture, and we received 80 percent of the funds for the restoration of the temple and its territory. We must not forget the fact that Orthodoxy is recognized here by the Constitution and the state pays the salary of the priest and pays part of the expenses associated with the cult of worship.
You spoke about the continuity of generations, that this temple needs to be dealt with. Is there a younger generation that is interested in the preservation of the temple and the traditions associated with Orthodoxy?
Today people of two generations are doing it. I'm somewhere in the middle between them. There are also young people, for example, my daughter. But it cannot be said that this generation is very active. Many no longer speak Russian. There are fears that all traditions may dissolve, because our children's attitude to time is more moderate than ours. And this applies not only to the Orthodox faith. This is true for both Catholicism and Protestantism. This is a general global trend. We have 120 people and two priests in our church on Sundays. And take the Catholics, where there is one priest in 5 villages, he roams from one temple to another. In this general situation, we are not in the worst position. We have 15 people singing in the choir, and you often see two and a half people in the Catholic Church.
As a scientist, what is your attitude towards religion? Do you think that science and religion are compatible concepts?
I graduated from the University of Louvain as a mechanical engineer and worked on issues related to nuclear energy. Many believe that science is incomparable with faith in God. I will answer in such a way that it is comparable if you understand both faith and science correctly. If you read the Old Testament literally, of course, you cannot compare what is written in the first chapters of the Book of Genesis about the creation of the world with today's theory of evolution. It contradicts each other if you read the Bible like American fundamentalists. Such exist in Russia. If you understand it differently, then you can understand and say that there are no contradictions and that these questions lie on completely different planes. Here's the answer. It is clear that the history of the Jewish people that we read in the Bible is hardly comparable to what science tells us today. If we understand the same Bible, in which there are already internal contradictions, in a different way, not literally, then the situation changes. For example, science cannot prove the existence of God and cannot prove that God does not exist. And here is an important point. It seems to me that all the proofs about the existence of God, which are given by religion, do not convince me.
Because it can be proven otherwise?
Yes, and my opinion is this: there are no contradictions between the correct understanding of religion and science. In Belgium, at the University of Louvain, the physicist and philosopher, professor of mathematics and astrophysics, Georges Lemaitre, who was the first to invent the theory of the expansion of the universe, taught. And now this theory has been experimentally proven. Now, this scientist was a priest. Once, namely in the year 53, Pope Pius XII asked Lemaitre a question about this theory of his, saying that what you invented, can you understand that this is proof of the creation of the world by the Lord God? And then Professor Lemaitre said to dad: no, don't interpret. These are two different dimensions. And he wrote about this in his notes. Like, let's not make a caricature of Christianity, be afraid of the number 666, which, by the way, really exists in the Apocalypse.
What happens in the church of St. Job for the so-called educational program in the field of religious education?
In order to increase the level of knowledge and understanding in matters of theology in our church, 15-20 people gather and listen to lectures at the university level about the Gospel. This year we invited as a speaker a professor from the University of Louvain, who spoke about the understanding of the individual in the Gospel, and an Orthodox priest, doctor of theology from the professorship of the University of Louvain. We do it in French. Our listeners are the parishioners of our church, as well as several Catholics. And, of course, the Sunday school at our church, which was organized by Matushka Maria, the wife of Father Leonid.
Why are courses of this type designed only for those who speak French and have a certain level of education? How to be a simple person? After all, you are a scientist and can look into the depths of things, read between the lines, look at things in a completely different way. For a simple person, a hand is a hand, he does not think about how it functions, what kind of vessels are there, how this part of the body is connected with the brain. How can an ordinary person understand the Bible and compare it with today's achievements in science and technology and today's reality?
Everyone should work in their field. As the apostle Paul says, there is room for prophets and there is room for teachers. The Church is the body of Christ, and also, as in the body there are both hands and feet and this is one body, but the head is Christ. I wish it was for everyone. But there must be a demand. While the demand for university lectures on theology in French.
As far as I know, you are writing a dissertation in theology. What is it about?
The theme is the descent of Christ into hell after death and before resurrection. At the end of Passion Week, this is exactly what we are talking about: Christ descended into hell, where he freed Adam and those who were there, defeated hell and the demon. In addition, the canonical icon of Easter is not Christ, who shines and comes out of the tomb, but Christ in hell and gives a hand to Adam and Eve, pulling them out of hell. This is very close to Orthodox thinking and much less Catholic. But there is nothing about this in the New Testament. Some theologians believe that this is allegorically or hinted at. My topic is to consider the written evidence of Christian writers of the 2nd and 3rd centuries. And we see that this teaching existed from ancient times. In my dissertation, I consider this issue and try to prove how this teaching should be understood in the context of modernity.
Interview recorded by Tatyana Andrievskaya .
Today people of two generations are doing it. I'm somewhere in the middle between them. There are also young people, for example, my daughter. But it cannot be said that this generation is very active. Many no longer speak Russian. There are fears that all traditions may dissolve, because our children's attitude to time is more moderate than ours. And this applies not only to the Orthodox faith. This is true for both Catholicism and Protestantism. This is a general global trend. We have 120 people and two priests in our church on Sundays. And take the Catholics, where there is one priest in 5 villages, he roams from one temple to another. In this general situation, we are not in the worst position. We have 15 people singing in the choir, and you often see two and a half people in the Catholic Church.
As a scientist, what is your attitude towards religion? Do you think that science and religion are compatible concepts?
I graduated from the University of Louvain as a mechanical engineer and worked on issues related to nuclear energy. Many believe that science is incomparable with faith in God. I will answer in such a way that it is comparable if you understand both faith and science correctly. If you read the Old Testament literally, of course, you cannot compare what is written in the first chapters of the Book of Genesis about the creation of the world with today's theory of evolution. It contradicts each other if you read the Bible like American fundamentalists. Such exist in Russia. If you understand it differently, then you can understand and say that there are no contradictions and that these questions lie on completely different planes. Here's the answer. It is clear that the history of the Jewish people that we read in the Bible is hardly comparable to what science tells us today. If we understand the same Bible, in which there are already internal contradictions, in a different way, not literally, then the situation changes. For example, science cannot prove the existence of God and cannot prove that God does not exist. And here is an important point. It seems to me that all the proofs about the existence of God, which are given by religion, do not convince me.
Because it can be proven otherwise?
Yes, and my opinion is this: there are no contradictions between the correct understanding of religion and science. In Belgium, at the University of Louvain, the physicist and philosopher, professor of mathematics and astrophysics, Georges Lemaitre, who was the first to invent the theory of the expansion of the universe, taught. And now this theory has been experimentally proven. Now, this scientist was a priest. Once, namely in the year 53, Pope Pius XII asked Lemaitre a question about this theory of his, saying that what you invented, can you understand that this is proof of the creation of the world by the Lord God? And then Professor Lemaitre said to dad: no, don't interpret. These are two different dimensions. And he wrote about this in his notes. Like, let's not make a caricature of Christianity, be afraid of the number 666, which, by the way, really exists in the Apocalypse.
What happens in the church of St. Job for the so-called educational program in the field of religious education?
In order to increase the level of knowledge and understanding in matters of theology in our church, 15-20 people gather and listen to lectures at the university level about the Gospel. This year we invited as a speaker a professor from the University of Louvain, who spoke about the understanding of the individual in the Gospel, and an Orthodox priest, doctor of theology from the professorship of the University of Louvain. We do it in French. Our listeners are the parishioners of our church, as well as several Catholics. And, of course, the Sunday school at our church, which was organized by Matushka Maria, the wife of Father Leonid.
Why are courses of this type designed only for those who speak French and have a certain level of education? How to be a simple person? After all, you are a scientist and can look into the depths of things, read between the lines, look at things in a completely different way. For a simple person, a hand is a hand, he does not think about how it functions, what kind of vessels are there, how this part of the body is connected with the brain. How can an ordinary person understand the Bible and compare it with today's achievements in science and technology and today's reality?
Everyone should work in their field. As the apostle Paul says, there is room for prophets and there is room for teachers. The Church is the body of Christ, and also, as in the body there are both hands and feet and this is one body, but the head is Christ. I wish it was for everyone. But there must be a demand. While the demand for university lectures on theology in French.
As far as I know, you are writing a dissertation in theology. What is it about?
The theme is the descent of Christ into hell after death and before resurrection. At the end of Passion Week, this is exactly what we are talking about: Christ descended into hell, where he freed Adam and those who were there, defeated hell and the demon. In addition, the canonical icon of Easter is not Christ, who shines and comes out of the tomb, but Christ in hell and gives a hand to Adam and Eve, pulling them out of hell. This is very close to Orthodox thinking and much less Catholic. But there is nothing about this in the New Testament. Some theologians believe that this is allegorically or hinted at. My topic is to consider the written evidence of Christian writers of the 2nd and 3rd centuries. And we see that this teaching existed from ancient times. In my dissertation, I consider this issue and try to prove how this teaching should be understood in the context of modernity.
Interview recorded by Tatyana Andrievskaya .